This aligns with research on affective forecasting (how we predict future emotional states). We tend to overestimate the intensity and duration of negative emotions in response to unpleasant events. That said, there are many dispreferred conditions I'd like to avoid so long as it's within my control :D
Love this. I read an interview with a homeless man the other month. The interviewer asked him if he'd take a decent job if he was offered one. The man had to think about it. "I don't know," he said. "I'd miss the freedom." Freedom, true freedom, has always been and always will be costly and difficult.
I call it exploring the worst case scenario. I use my business tool, SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats), to develop a realistic plan of action to deal with personal challenges.
It is an entertaining and certainly reassuring mind game, but it is a game, a fantasy and - if I may say so - an unavoidable and therefore innocent hubris.
We cannot anticipate certain losses because it is only through the loss that we learn what significance the lost had for us. The extent of the shock we then experience simply lies beyond our horizon, it is part of the unknown - in which nevertheless our greatest hope always lies.
But it is not visible beforehand. In this respect, this mind game may now have a calming effect, maintain our illusion of control, which we so urgently need in difficult times, and help us to live in the here and now. No more and no less.
This is an interesting critique, but one that makes no sense to me. The oracularly perfect anticipation of emotional impact isn't the point of this exercise. Of course we'll be surprised by fate. How could it be otherwise? When the blow lands unexpectedly tomorrow, we'll deal with it with the same reason we possess today.
The point of the several varieties of "premeditatio malorum," is two-fold:
1) To defuse today's unnecessary anxiety and help us find peace today.
2) To prepare us to react to the many things that are likely and predictable so we're not caught flat-footed (more than is unavoidable).
It seems to me that you're complaining that screw drivers are really bad at driving nails.
The ancient Stoics were very comfortable with lack of control. Their entire moral system revolves around the idea that we control almost nothing except virtue, which is their focus in all things. Virtue is only found in how we react to what happens to us.
Part of this exercise is about dispelling unreasonable anxieties that are not virtuous, since they are not moderate, wise, courageous, and just, and overall just irrational.
I'm interested in hearing you develop the idea further if you think I've missed the point you're making.
Thank you for your differentiated answer. Well, I think the idea of mentally preparing for possible misfortune makes a lot of sense in principle - if only for reasons of the necessary sobering up with regard to the transience of everything.
However, your description of the activities you could imagine as a prospective homeless person gave me a rather queasy feeling. It just seemed contrived and fantastic - like a daydream. It became clear that you assume that you could act as the same person you are today, but in the role of a homeless person. As if this were simply a change of external scenery, like a trip to South America or a retreat in Thailand.
But you originally suggest asking the question what if? And this is where my questions come in. My point is that you can't anticipate certain strokes of fate because they affect you on levels that you don't even know exist today, because they have always been stable but unconscious. I'm talking about the unknown unknowns. I suggest seeking out also your inner Socrates instead of only your inner Diogenes - the one, who knows that he knows nothing. And asking more devastating. Because that’s the issue: destruction, disappearance, right?
What would happen if, as a homeless person, you suddenly lost even the home of stoicism, if your identity fell to pieces and you lost your spiritual home as well as your external one? If you look at the stoics like old friends who have become strangers, who no longer have anything to say to you, who can no longer help you? What would it be like then without your over all loved stoicism?
What if you find the extent of your shocking underpreparedness so devastating, what if the illusion of your supposed preparation collapses so brilliantly that you feel that ‘death as the worst case’ seems to be an illusion, too? What if you feel that you are daily dying in a living body and that this is a hell you could never have imagined today?
I think the suggested preparation could at least benefit from imagining ‘hell on earth’ a little more unexpected, challenging, vast and asking the what if question more radically than you may apparently do so far.
And I really mean that with all the neccessary stoicism I thankfully have at my disposal ;-)
I'm not sure what I can do with your series of what ifs. I agree that all things you've mentioned are possible. I could have an absolute breakdown if I lived on the streets. My personality and coping skills may fall far short of the challenge. I don't even fully know what the challenge would be.
I don't know what I don't know, and no one else does either.
But that could happen to you or me tomorrow without going homeless. Maybe I have a health scare and it's way worse than any of the major health challenges I've had before, and it breaks me.
Maybe I lose a loved one, and it's worse than the other times I've lost a loved one, and it breaks me.
I am open to this. But what of it? There's nothing to be done with it now that I can see. I'll cope as best I can when it happens.
It’s interesting stoic practice, and makes a lot of sense. But on the topic of homelessness, although used as an example as, the homeless represent a disproportionate amount of people with mental health issues.
In my personal life, I have a chronic condition that without medical insurance would be devastating. I’ve thought many times about the fact that I and many are one medical disaster away from homelessness despite the fact that I have a high paying position and a fair amount of savings, but that could be depleted very quickly with medical costs.
Sure. I have an autoimmune condition and severe allergies that plague me, and part of my thinking on this subject was "could I earn enough money to afford the topical steroid I use when I have a bad reaction and my face blows up like someone beat me with a baseball bat?"
I think probably yes, but the answer isn't important. Whether or not we have a diagnosed medical condition, many people are in the exact same boat. Cancer treatments and many other expensive treatments would bankrupt people. Hilariously, in some cases, the impoverished street dweller may be better able to access some forms of care, but that's varied.
I don't know the particulars of your situation, but in a similar situation, I might think about it this way to defang it:
1) Worst case scenario is that I die. I can live with that.
2) I may find ways to access medical treatment that I can't now foresee. There are medical charities and medical debt relief orgs. Hospitals regularly write off the cost of care for the poor.
3) If I can't access care, I'll probably still be able to enjoy parts of my life.
4) Living through these struggles will teach me to better utilize virtue and find satisfaction in what I can control.
Another way to look on it is that any bad situation isn't the worst situation. Nothing is dialed up to 100% until you're dead. And Death isn't going to bother you.
Absolutely, it might not have come through in my post, but actually my condition has been one of the best things that ever happened to me. I am keenly aware that things can change quickly and therefore incredibly grateful for present moment. I was diagnosed with MS which took 11 years to diagnose and started injections in 024. thank God for insurance as the cost was 120,000 a year for the drug. Although I was hit with depression when first diagnosed after a few months, it enabled me and inspired me to take care of myself. I’ve been much healthier ever since and have a different outlook on life. I thought, OK with the progression which is slow for me that I might be using a cane when I’m 50. I am now 60 and really take care of myself. In fact, I ran 5K twice this week in addition to yoga and resistance training.
More recently because the progression has been stable for many years, I just switched to another drug, which is pill form and much easier to deal with.
Regarding death, that made me chuckle, I remember my first exposure to Stoicism through a back door of CBT during a psychology course. During that time of my life, I was struggling with anxiety and I really liked Albert Ellis’s approach to what the worst thing that can happen. However, every scenario that I did the worst thing that could happen always was death! Lol.
Last thing, it would be hard to notice that I have MS other than my handwriting is atrocious and my fingers are numb half the time which is why I use voice to text a lot. I try to capture most of my typos, but many times I miss them. So if you ever read anything that I write and think wow that guy is really bad at grammar that is why. :-)
{...Worst case scenario is that I DIE. I can LIVE with that...}
Funny sentence indeed !!!
Humans have enormous plasticity and the only species that is able to survive the most adverse climates and societal conditions during a single life-time, not only due to exceptional stamina, virtually outpacing their next savanna meal.
This fact is a two-sided, VERY sharp sword:
- one positive, due to almost incredible adaptability and chances of survival,
- one negative, due to the sad fact that the global, narcissistic overlords know about it and try their best to squeeze out "their" peons' life-sap well knowing they can get away in most cases without facing any kind of accountability ...
Therefore your post might be interpreted in two quite distinctive ways:
- by a peon: Nice to know, there'll still be a bearable a life after (insert as you please) and
- by a power-hungry narcissist: Let's roll, ASAP; they'll swallow-it !!!
What's funny is that people do this when it amplifies their anxiety, not as a way to explore how it might not be so bad.
This aligns with research on affective forecasting (how we predict future emotional states). We tend to overestimate the intensity and duration of negative emotions in response to unpleasant events. That said, there are many dispreferred conditions I'd like to avoid so long as it's within my control :D
Same. Quite happy with my life. But if these things happen? I'll survive them, move on, and find what joy I can. Or I'll be dead, and that's fine too.
One of the best opening sentences I’ve seen in a post.
The elaboration made it that much better.
I have been living with this mentality for many years before I ever dove into Stoicism.
Love this. I read an interview with a homeless man the other month. The interviewer asked him if he'd take a decent job if he was offered one. The man had to think about it. "I don't know," he said. "I'd miss the freedom." Freedom, true freedom, has always been and always will be costly and difficult.
I call it exploring the worst case scenario. I use my business tool, SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats), to develop a realistic plan of action to deal with personal challenges.
It is an entertaining and certainly reassuring mind game, but it is a game, a fantasy and - if I may say so - an unavoidable and therefore innocent hubris.
We cannot anticipate certain losses because it is only through the loss that we learn what significance the lost had for us. The extent of the shock we then experience simply lies beyond our horizon, it is part of the unknown - in which nevertheless our greatest hope always lies.
But it is not visible beforehand. In this respect, this mind game may now have a calming effect, maintain our illusion of control, which we so urgently need in difficult times, and help us to live in the here and now. No more and no less.
This is an interesting critique, but one that makes no sense to me. The oracularly perfect anticipation of emotional impact isn't the point of this exercise. Of course we'll be surprised by fate. How could it be otherwise? When the blow lands unexpectedly tomorrow, we'll deal with it with the same reason we possess today.
The point of the several varieties of "premeditatio malorum," is two-fold:
1) To defuse today's unnecessary anxiety and help us find peace today.
2) To prepare us to react to the many things that are likely and predictable so we're not caught flat-footed (more than is unavoidable).
It seems to me that you're complaining that screw drivers are really bad at driving nails.
The ancient Stoics were very comfortable with lack of control. Their entire moral system revolves around the idea that we control almost nothing except virtue, which is their focus in all things. Virtue is only found in how we react to what happens to us.
Part of this exercise is about dispelling unreasonable anxieties that are not virtuous, since they are not moderate, wise, courageous, and just, and overall just irrational.
I'm interested in hearing you develop the idea further if you think I've missed the point you're making.
Thank you for your differentiated answer. Well, I think the idea of mentally preparing for possible misfortune makes a lot of sense in principle - if only for reasons of the necessary sobering up with regard to the transience of everything.
However, your description of the activities you could imagine as a prospective homeless person gave me a rather queasy feeling. It just seemed contrived and fantastic - like a daydream. It became clear that you assume that you could act as the same person you are today, but in the role of a homeless person. As if this were simply a change of external scenery, like a trip to South America or a retreat in Thailand.
But you originally suggest asking the question what if? And this is where my questions come in. My point is that you can't anticipate certain strokes of fate because they affect you on levels that you don't even know exist today, because they have always been stable but unconscious. I'm talking about the unknown unknowns. I suggest seeking out also your inner Socrates instead of only your inner Diogenes - the one, who knows that he knows nothing. And asking more devastating. Because that’s the issue: destruction, disappearance, right?
What would happen if, as a homeless person, you suddenly lost even the home of stoicism, if your identity fell to pieces and you lost your spiritual home as well as your external one? If you look at the stoics like old friends who have become strangers, who no longer have anything to say to you, who can no longer help you? What would it be like then without your over all loved stoicism?
What if you find the extent of your shocking underpreparedness so devastating, what if the illusion of your supposed preparation collapses so brilliantly that you feel that ‘death as the worst case’ seems to be an illusion, too? What if you feel that you are daily dying in a living body and that this is a hell you could never have imagined today?
I think the suggested preparation could at least benefit from imagining ‘hell on earth’ a little more unexpected, challenging, vast and asking the what if question more radically than you may apparently do so far.
And I really mean that with all the neccessary stoicism I thankfully have at my disposal ;-)
Thanks for explaining. I'm always happy to bring more rigor to my thinking, and skepticism about what I think I can know: https://andrewperlot.substack.com/i/144078290/your-labels-made-you-stupid
I'm not sure what I can do with your series of what ifs. I agree that all things you've mentioned are possible. I could have an absolute breakdown if I lived on the streets. My personality and coping skills may fall far short of the challenge. I don't even fully know what the challenge would be.
I don't know what I don't know, and no one else does either.
But that could happen to you or me tomorrow without going homeless. Maybe I have a health scare and it's way worse than any of the major health challenges I've had before, and it breaks me.
Maybe I lose a loved one, and it's worse than the other times I've lost a loved one, and it breaks me.
I am open to this. But what of it? There's nothing to be done with it now that I can see. I'll cope as best I can when it happens.
It’s interesting stoic practice, and makes a lot of sense. But on the topic of homelessness, although used as an example as, the homeless represent a disproportionate amount of people with mental health issues.
In my personal life, I have a chronic condition that without medical insurance would be devastating. I’ve thought many times about the fact that I and many are one medical disaster away from homelessness despite the fact that I have a high paying position and a fair amount of savings, but that could be depleted very quickly with medical costs.
Sure. I have an autoimmune condition and severe allergies that plague me, and part of my thinking on this subject was "could I earn enough money to afford the topical steroid I use when I have a bad reaction and my face blows up like someone beat me with a baseball bat?"
I think probably yes, but the answer isn't important. Whether or not we have a diagnosed medical condition, many people are in the exact same boat. Cancer treatments and many other expensive treatments would bankrupt people. Hilariously, in some cases, the impoverished street dweller may be better able to access some forms of care, but that's varied.
I don't know the particulars of your situation, but in a similar situation, I might think about it this way to defang it:
1) Worst case scenario is that I die. I can live with that.
2) I may find ways to access medical treatment that I can't now foresee. There are medical charities and medical debt relief orgs. Hospitals regularly write off the cost of care for the poor.
3) If I can't access care, I'll probably still be able to enjoy parts of my life.
4) Living through these struggles will teach me to better utilize virtue and find satisfaction in what I can control.
Another way to look on it is that any bad situation isn't the worst situation. Nothing is dialed up to 100% until you're dead. And Death isn't going to bother you.
Absolutely, it might not have come through in my post, but actually my condition has been one of the best things that ever happened to me. I am keenly aware that things can change quickly and therefore incredibly grateful for present moment. I was diagnosed with MS which took 11 years to diagnose and started injections in 024. thank God for insurance as the cost was 120,000 a year for the drug. Although I was hit with depression when first diagnosed after a few months, it enabled me and inspired me to take care of myself. I’ve been much healthier ever since and have a different outlook on life. I thought, OK with the progression which is slow for me that I might be using a cane when I’m 50. I am now 60 and really take care of myself. In fact, I ran 5K twice this week in addition to yoga and resistance training.
More recently because the progression has been stable for many years, I just switched to another drug, which is pill form and much easier to deal with.
Regarding death, that made me chuckle, I remember my first exposure to Stoicism through a back door of CBT during a psychology course. During that time of my life, I was struggling with anxiety and I really liked Albert Ellis’s approach to what the worst thing that can happen. However, every scenario that I did the worst thing that could happen always was death! Lol.
Last thing, it would be hard to notice that I have MS other than my handwriting is atrocious and my fingers are numb half the time which is why I use voice to text a lot. I try to capture most of my typos, but many times I miss them. So if you ever read anything that I write and think wow that guy is really bad at grammar that is why. :-)
👍👍👍 🔥🔥🔥 !!!
Two eggs in boiling water chat along:
- horrible this ever increasing heat, to which the other one replies:
- never mind; you will be strengthened and made harder ...
I like that!
Sorry for the long ramble, that’s another problem with voice to text! Easy to run on!
{...Worst case scenario is that I DIE. I can LIVE with that...}
Funny sentence indeed !!!
Humans have enormous plasticity and the only species that is able to survive the most adverse climates and societal conditions during a single life-time, not only due to exceptional stamina, virtually outpacing their next savanna meal.
This fact is a two-sided, VERY sharp sword:
- one positive, due to almost incredible adaptability and chances of survival,
- one negative, due to the sad fact that the global, narcissistic overlords know about it and try their best to squeeze out "their" peons' life-sap well knowing they can get away in most cases without facing any kind of accountability ...
Therefore your post might be interpreted in two quite distinctive ways:
- by a peon: Nice to know, there'll still be a bearable a life after (insert as you please) and
- by a power-hungry narcissist: Let's roll, ASAP; they'll swallow-it !!!